Orangutans: More Noble Than Humans. A Conversation with Leif Cocks

Most conservation efforts focus on facts and figures—but what if the key to saving endangered species also involved love, empathy, and understanding? Leif Cocks reveals how genuine connections with orangutans shaped his approach to conservation, advocating for a solutions rooted in compassion rather than conflict. This inspiring conversation uncovers the profound intelligence and autonomy of these remarkable primates and why understanding their complex social systems demands a shift in how we see all wildlife.

In his conversation with host Rick Schwartz, Leif shares stories from his decades of work rescuing and rehabilitating orangutans. Leif also explains the vital importance of habitat conservation, ecosystem integrity, and cultural respect for indigenous communities.

Animals, Nature, and You on IG

Book mentioned: Wild Lessons (no link available yet)

The Orangutan Project on IG
The Orangutan Project on FB
The Orangutan Project on Linkedin

The Orangutan Project
International Tiger Project
International Elephant Project
Forest For The People

Find Rick here:
ZoologyRick.com

Rick's social media stuff...
Instagram
YouTube
Facebook
Threads
BlueSky



Podcast Music: Positive Carefree Folk Pop
Artist: Burgberg
Used with Full Music Standard Lic.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

But also I I loved how you highlighted the I guess the fallacy of um for example, you can't and I think Jen Goodle said it quite well in reference to chimpanzees. If you don't describe chimpanzees in human terms, you're not describing them accurately. You know? And and so in in fact it's the prejudice that they're not persons or or very similar to us in in emotions and outlooks, etc., um, actually reduces your ability to understand them.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

I'm Rick Schwartz, educator, public speaker, and all-around curious guy. Over the years, my curiosity and experiences, along with the many people I have worked with, revealed to me we all have a desire to feel connected to the natural world. You're listening to Animals, Nature and You, a podcast that explores a connection between animals, nature, and humans. A podcast that celebrates learning more, following our curiosity, and reconnecting with the natural world. Welcome to another episode of Animals, Nature and You. I'm your host, Frick Schwartz, and as always, I am very, very appreciative that you are here, joining me on this curious Odyssey known as Animals Nature and You. This is a great opportunity. Today's episode, I'm very excited about. I have known the work of Leif Cox for a very long time. He has been doing so much incredible work with orangutan conservation, and that spread then eventually over the years to elephants and tigers and people. And the and it goes into his work when you look at it, really highlights what we've talked about with other guests, how effective conservation work isn't just a single thing you're looking at. You have to look at the holistic side of stuff, which includes humans. And his work shows us the value in approaching conservation as a multifaceted thing to work on, including the people. And I do know also he's got a book coming out, so I'm going to ask him about that too. He has other books. In fact, what I'm going to do, I'll just, I'll just stop. I'll I'll read the proper intro and everything that we have here for him, and we'll go into the conversation. We'll bring him into the studio and go into the conversation. I again, I might, a little insight before he gets in here. I might fanboy a little bit because I've known, like I said, I've known his work for a long time, and it's really exciting to be able to share this space with him and bring him into Animal's Nature and you and have this conversation. I hope that you get as much out of this as I'm going to. But I'm sure you will. I'm sure you will. Because if you don't know, well, I'll ch I'll tell you. Leaf Cox is a world-renowned orangutan specialist and the founder of the orangutan project, as you probably know from me rambling earlier. This project, the orangutan project, is a leading conservation organization dedicated to the protection and preservation of orangutans and their habitats. He is affectionately known as the orangutan whisperer, which is also the title of a 2016 Al Jazeera documentary about his work. And I will say, if you Google him, look him up, go to the website. There are so many different documentaries about his work because it has gone over so many years and it's been so impactful. It is truly f just fascinating. Leif is a population biologist with over 30 years of experience working with orangutans. He has a Bachelor's of Applied Science and a Master's of Science from Curtin University, Western Australia, and a postgraduate diploma in natural resources, again from Curtin University, Western Australia. He is an author of many books. He is an international speaker. He is the head of the orangutan project. He is the head of the International Elephant Project. He is head of International Tiger Project, head of the Forest People Program, which also, again, all the links will be down below, and the director of Wild Asia and so much more. And if all that wasn't enough, twice a year, he leads eco tours into the jungles to see orangutans in the wild, as well as the work that the orangutan project does. And he uses that time to discuss and talk with those that are on the trip with him to learn about the habitat, to learn about the orangutans, share his stories and experiences. Leif, I just want to say you're obviously very motivated and passionate about the work you do and clearly very busy with everything you do. So I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to be a guest here with me on Animals Nature and You. To be here, Vic. Thank you. And and as I was mentioning in the read up there with the bio and your intro, you have done so much and and currently are doing so much. But I would really like to pick your brain, at least to start off with, uh, about the orangutan conservation work. And correct me if I'm wrong, but that is kind of where the doing things in the wild, if you will, really started was with the orangutans in your in your history and your work. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Aaron Ross Powell That that's correct, yeah. And my um my academic qualifications and I guess probably, you know, 70, 80 percent of my hands-on working experience.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Aaron Ross Powell Can you take us back in time and when it all started for you as far as that first shift into working directly with the wildlife? Like we said in the bio, you you do eco-tours out in the jungle now? You're part of you know, releasing orangutans back into the wild. But how did that all start? Like what take us back to actually go even further. A young leaf growing up, did you always have this fascination with wildlife and conservation and nature, or is it something you fell into in college, or how did it all start for you?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Um I always loved animals and being with animals. And so I was actually brought up in a very large metropolis, Hong Kong. And um, but my bedroom was a menagerie, you know, with budgery guards and terrapins and tropical fish, etc. And um, so that's kind of uh so I always wanted to be and around animals. Um my family came from a family of artists, you know, actress actors and um art directors, etc. And I had some talent, um, but I I took a a U-turn into science and animals. And um, yeah, I started on my journey to um with my university qualifications, and then eventually ended up working with 15 orangutans in a zoo. And um and luckily back in those days there was no occupational health and safety, and so there was no training, and they said, look, this is how you work the the slides, and this is a diet sheet, you know, look after these animals. And um, and so no one told me that they were dangerous or anything. So I just went and had my lunch with them and interacted with them. It was only later that um I discovered that other people thought Iranian tanks were dangerous and they kept them behind bars, and you know, and but the wonderful thing about not having any um preconceived notions or starting my interaction with them as captive versus captor behind bars and control, I got to um become friends with them and learn how they l live, think, and behave, and discovered that they were self-aware persons. In fact, the most intelligent being that shares our planet. And they don't belong in captivity, just as humans don't do well in captivity, orangutans don't either, but also quickly discovered that um they were being driven to extinction. Um you know, and so since I started, we know at least in Kalimantan alone, a hundred thousand orangutans have been murdered. And so that started my journey to to do my research and um on my holidays and weekend going and rescuing orangutans up in um in Kalimantan. And then and eventually into sp seeing that the that we needed a Pacific organization and we needed the funding in order to achieve our vision of securing the viability of the last remaining orangutan populations.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

You just unpacked a whole bunch there. And I and I I want to dive into all of it because it's it's one thing having worked with wildlife for the majority of my life, I love that you don't shy away from the recognition that spending time with these animals, they become your friends. You recognize their intelligence, their autonomy, all of that. And and that you don't and so many people in the world of science will shy away from that because the whole concept of not prescribing human conditions or thoughts to these animals. So I thank you for that, for one, because I think it's important for uh us to discuss. I think it's important for people to realize that level of intelligence. For you, then, as you became friends with them, you start to learn more about them and you start then like people go on holiday, they don't usually go out rescuing wildlife. What was that first adventure like for you, going out there and and realizing that this needs to happen? We need to we need to do more to take care of them in the wild like this, rescue them from dangerous situations, and then find a way to to re-home them in other parts of the the jungle that are safe for them.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean it was a you know, and it still remains a challenging, you know, situation, you know, where the big multinationals are um you know destroying the the rainforests for unsustainable monocultures such as palm oil, pulp paper, and now coal mining. Talk about stupid upon stupid, destroying rainforests for low-grade coal. Um and so, yeah, you know, and the the the team is as we speak trying to rescue as many orangutanks as possible before the coal miners kill them as their forests are destroyed. And through our rescue centre and our release program, establishing a you know a secure population in the land that we are um we have now control and leasing um for them. So it's a multifaceted thing, it it continues on. Um but also I I loved how you highlighted the I guess the fallacy of um for example, you can't and I think Jen Goodall said it quite well in reference to chimpanzees. You see, you if you don't describe chimpanzees in human terms, you're not describing them accurately, you know? And and so in in fact there's a prejudice that they're not persons or or very similar to us in in emotions and outlooks, etc., um, actually reduces your ability to understand them properly. Um and also there's a there's a I always want to propose something that the wisdom in love. You know, in order for m there's two things, in order for me to fully understand you and communicate with you, I have to have empathy and see through your eyes. Without that the communication is is somewhat reduced. Um secondly, the where it leads to this um very um cold um way of looking at the world is win-lose situations. You know, and then the end justifies a means. But these orders give short-term temporary solutions and provide the seeds of the destruction of your work. Whether love, when I'm talking about universal love, I'm not talking about preferential love, um, provides a a framework for win-win solutions. You know, for example, for us as forest communities, future generations, orangutans, etc. And that wisdom in love and which creates win-win solutions, actually, I believe provides the efficacy and longevity of our actions. Lastly, I see a lot of conservationists too fighting against each other for name, fame, money, part, and reputation, because they haven't found that love and joy within themselves, which is obviously inhibits our ability to enact change. But also they may start hating those who are destroying the environment and correctly, and that hatred eats them up aside and they and vegetables psychologically collapse. And so only love provides the um the power and the longevity um for us to continue on in very challenging situations. And so that's a quick dirty, quick and dirty summary of why I've come in my journey to to reject the um the you know that cold scientific doctrine, doesn't make sense, of um and and I so I I call it two wings of the bird. You have to have the love and compassion and then the intellect and knowledge. Because indiscriminate charity causes more problems than it than it solves, which is true, which is that's the criticism of you know just emotively acting w without knowledge, but you need both. If if one is wing is missing, one um compassion and love or intellect and understanding, the bird just flops around on the floor.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

That is an outstanding analogy, sir. Thank you for that. That is because you're you're painting a visual there, obviously, that someone could recognize it as a bird, but the fact that you need the balance of those and they they're both equally important. That's great. Thank you for that. I do want to jump back to what you just said, though, about the importance of approaching even those you disagree with with love. And what you said, something along the lines of conservationists hating those that are doing perhaps atrocities or bad things to the environment or to a species. I know here in America we are currently in a situation where you must seem to have to pick either A or B. And if you're not this, you hate that. And it is this energy of pitting each other against each other. And I want to really explore what you said there because I agree completely that there is more than just the black and white of it that we're being told we have to pick. And with that, then I do also agree. I see the damage that occurs when we approach our perhaps counterpart or someone who may disagree or stand differently in how we should approach things with this anger or hate. Can you explain for my audience your experiences or why it is you feel that you aren't going to sit on the other side of your orangutan conservation as an example? And you see somebody trying to clear-cut a forest for palm oil as an example, that you don't have hate for them, but you also want to stand there for the orangutan and do right by the orangutan. Can you explain that a little more for those in my audience who perhaps have been trained recently in our culture in America to no, you must hate your enemies.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Yeah. And and it's corrosive and it doesn't produce lasting outcomes. Right. And so that doesn't mean you don't act, you know, you but you act without hatred or or maliciousness, you know. And if you can, you provide it, you provide um a framework and opportunity for those that you have to have conflict with in order to achieve a better outcome for everybody, including them. I mean, that they can't make money or live a good life on a dead planet, you know? And so it's not like it's not like we're doing something that's going to be in their best interests, but they simply, you know, at this time don't understand that. And they think that, you know, more money will provide them more happiness, but you know, as a as a fallacy. And so, you know, you know, we can have to have compassion for for them. And so, yeah, it's um it's a it's in in that framework that I think we have to operate. And I'll give you um, I mean, two great examples of you know, wonderful human beings. Let's say Martin Luther King, you know, his job was to um raise the status status of African Americans, right? But if you hear what he says, he wanted to create America good for everybody. You know, his job was to, you know, in a sense, was was um was rights for African Americans, but his vision was an America that was good for everybody, regardless of their race and and religion. Mahatma Gandhi stopped his independence movement during World War II because it thought it'd be unfair to continue the process while um Britain was in war, you know, because he had compassion and understanding for for his enemy. And those visions which go beyond the us and them, even though their role is either you know huh rights for a particular group or independence for a particular nation, undoubtedly provides a lasting legacy and and solutions. And otherwise, you know, why would anyone ever allow you to win if you provide the existential threat that your you winning means their destruction, right? They'll fight to the end. And ultimately this comes to you see everywhere is you know, ultimately ends up, you know, is the where the Nazis got to, the final solution. You know, there's no way we can come, we can do this to all the people and fight without totally eliminating them, you know. But the Nazis found out that eliminating the whole people is pretty damn hard, right? Right. So more than likely you're not gonna achieve, and then you know the outcome is gonna be your destruct destruction, you know, as it plays out. And so it it it so that's why, you know, again referencing my my comment, the wisdom of love, right? It's it's you know, it's unwise action to demonize and try to destroy the other, inevitably history has shown time and time again, that only results in your own destruction.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

This lays a wonderful foundation then for how I would like to continue this conversation, in that I would love to hear from you first part, what are the challenges that orangutans are facing right now? What are those that some might look at from the position of caring deeply for animals that these are the enemy on the other side? What are those challenges and how are they being caused? And then I would love to, and we'll come back to this, but I would love to also then talk about what are the active solutions? What are some of the things people can do other than just get angry or just point a finger and say those people over there are wrong? So but let's first start with uh and again coming from the coming from the concept, and I'm just re reiterating this also for the audience, is that I would love to, now that we've established the importance of the wisdom of love, we've established the importance of recognizing there's a lot of gray area in between what we are been told to believe, right versus wrong on everything. What are some of the challenges right now that orangutans are facing in the wild and what is causing the need for your work with the orangutan project?

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Yeah. I mean, the the first challenge is obviously orangutans need rainforest, um, but they just don't need any rainforest. And and governments tend to conserve areas which are not suitable for the palm ore plantations and for water catchment for the cities, i.e. the hills and the mountains. But all the tigers, elephants and orangutans and the local communities don't live there because there's no biodiversity, there's no nutrients, there's no productivity. They all live in the lowland and river rhine areas. And that's why 80% of orangutanks don't live in protected forests. They live in previously logged forests outside of protected areas. And so we have to piece together and leasing and purchasing the critical lowland and river rhine forests to build ecosystems the right type, shape, and size. Now, there have to be all of those, I just described the type. They have to be the right shape because you lose about 80% of your biodiversity one kilometer from the edge of your rainforest. And so having thin strips or corridors don't work. They eventually collapse and don't hold any biodiversity. But also have to be the right size because rainforest reduces the ambient temperature by four degrees, creates its own humidity, creates its own rainfall. And so a small patch of the rainforests eventually ecologically collapse. And a lot of um environmentalists believe that the, for example, the Amazon may be starting to collapse into a savannah, because there's not enough Amazon to support the Amazon. So we have this window of opportunity to save viable ecosystems themselves that won't collapsed, right? So now you're saving orangutanks if their ecosystem's going to collapse. And I also have to unfortunately take into account the sea level rise that we're baked in due to climate change. And a lot of the um the coastal peat swamp where orangutanks live will be underwater. And so within in our children's lifetime, grandchildren's lifetime, they will no longer survive in those areas. So we have to then so I've selected seven ecosystems of the right type. shape and size, and they are also positioned to um conserve the three species of orangutans and the three subspecies that are born in orangutans. And so people just think orangutan, right? But there's three species and those species really matter. Even the subspecies really matter. You know, and for this for their survival. Because an orangutan is adapted to its particular rainforest. You know, if you put the wrong orangutan in the wrong rainforest you get the a bad outcome. So so um we need to conserve habitats of large enough to secure viable populations of 2,000 orangutans in each of these ecosystems. Otherwise if it's less than that, the rate of genetic loss due to breeding will exceed the rate of random genetic mutations. And therefore the um the genetic diversity will slowly collapse over time and the population will would will collapse. And so all this has to be put together and so we have a strategy to save the three species orangutan in seven ecosystems that were piecing together that will survive this extinction crisis. And so these maybe visualize these are arcs of um biodiversity and orangutan populations. We had to start three other projects because I always say orangtang is maybe the center of my love but not the boundary of it. And I found there were three three species falling outside the umbrella elephants, tigers and people. So I started International Elephant Project, International Tiger Project and Frost for people.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

So in these seven ecosystems we're bringing all living beings under the umbrella of conservation I want to ask you because it's been an ongoing theme I've interviewed quite a few people about conservation and really it just seems over the last 30 years conservation's starting to realize the value in working with the people who live in the habitats that these animals are in. So talk to me about the Forest People Project talk to me about why that element is so important to the elephants, the tigers, the orangutan Well you you've had indigenous communities living in the rainforest for hundreds of years, either doing flesh and burn agriculture or hunter gathering.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

And these systems had been sustainable over centuries. But because they have no power i.e no money and no education the big multinationals take their land away and then their systems of survival are no longer environmentally sustainable. Not due to their fault they no longer have enough area remaining in order to practice these things. And so for example in Sumatra the Talak Mulloc community that we work with when we started working there their children were malnourished and uneducated and they didn't name their children till they're six years old because why get attached to these little suckers they're probably going to be dead and so what we did we employed a midwife we did women's empowerment we provided health we provide free education plus the breakfast and lunch to every every child even up to university scholarships. And what we and I mean I always my my little quip is I'm breeding a new race of humans because they're twice the size of their parents because of the nutrient in there and um and so the the two aspects to again your high core conservation say why are you doing that now they're just going to breed like flies and create more problems. Opposite if you reduce infant mortality and empower women the population goes down and what we're seeing and we're educated people often choose once they get the degree not to come back and subsistence farm but you know go off and get good jobs. So actually by loving and looking after the people you're taking the pressure the pressure off the environment as as a win-win solution. Some will of course always remain which is wonderful and as I get older and look more bedraggled you know people often say well what's your um succession plan you know do I have a mini lace waiting to take over when I fall off the perch but if that's what I do then I've failed my mission because as a conservationist I want to be unemployed right I don't I don't want my organization to continue to exist. Otherwise I wouldn't have by very definition I would not have solved the problem. And so we're developing agricultural systems under the rainforest canopy to empower local communities through education and affluence so they had a power to protect the forest. And so the secession plan is to not only leave these ecosystems environmentally sustainable with sustainable population orangutanks, but economically sustainable and powerful enough to defend themselves into the future.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

And that in the end hopefully won't include me which I think also is hard for people to wrap their head around sometimes when it comes to the goal of conservation which is we'd rather not have to do this work. We'd rather leave the planet not having a need for what we're fighting for, what we're working on, I should say. So I I I appreciate that perspective that you have there and there's that value in empowering those who live in that habitat and live in that space to essentially take the work you're doing and carry it forward into the next generation within their own population. And you know I think that says there's really really great stuff. And I love how you explain too that the other animals are a part of this umbrella where you have to start with orangutans, but you see the need for all of it. Because I I do think that highlights the interconnectivity not only of just one species, but the habitat itself and how others rely on this and the the habitat relies on those that live within it as well. So it's just amazing work that you're doing and and I really find it again I want to go back to you you'd mentioned the challenges as far as the the orangutans and the habitat loss and you know whether it's the the cheap coal or the the trying to do um you know paper mill basically planting of trees or or the the palm oil. When somebody is on the other side of the planet let's say someone's listening to this podcast, whether they're here in the US or or anywhere else, but they're not there in you know in in the habitat where these many species you work with are are living but their heart feels the weight of what's going on and they they they they do want to take action or do something. What is what are some of the things the average non-science person can do to help participate in the level of or at least some version of the conservation work that you're spearheading.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

I mean one of the controversial things I say as individuals I say zero nothing you can do and um and I and for example you know getting solar panels, electric batteries whatever go palm all free at the supermarket and I'm not saying you shouldn't do all those things. You know I think we should l um live a life of personal integrity you know and move forward. But if that's all we do all I'm doing virtual signaling is look I'm this fantastic guy and look at me I've got solar panels and I'm a vegan the world's going to pot but it's not because of me. If every one behave like me you know then the world will be perfect. You know why can't you all be like me? You know and um and of course yet that's not the solution that's just in a sense ego. Unfortunately we have to collectivize we have to collectivize our labor and capital. This is the only way humans can ever achieve anything and ever have achieved everything. Every good businessman knows he can go get himself a good job but if he wants to make a lot of money and make a significant impact in the business world he has to form a company and collectivize labor and capital. There's no difference for conservation. So I always urge people look if you you know you want to collectivize your your labor and capital you i volunteering or your your donations in an intelligent meaningful way to make that change you want in in the world. So so I think we've been sold the pup and this is why obviously you know that the carbon footprint was created by British Petroleum to tell you that's your fault and go act as an individual while we you free us up to you know destroy the planet and make a lot of money. The other pup I think we've been sold is think globally, act locally look you know that's basically saying you know I care about those who are closest to me. Ultimately I care about my family community religion and nation. Ultimately that's just selfishness. I care about the institutions that support me. Love is always by its very nature universal. And when we're talking for example like climate change climate change and you know fires in Los Angeles and flooding in Florida doesn't care whether it's created in you know in in Americas or in Asia. The destruction of the rainforest in Indonesia is just as important to you know um the creating of those issues than anything locally. And if we just act locally we're not addressing some of the key issues especially in developing and tropical nations which disproportionately is driving climate change. And lastly the great opportunity that we're missing is conservation in developed nations is expensive because people get paid a lot of money. You know things cost a lot. In Indonesia conservation is dirt cheap you know oh you oh how much do you have to pay you to risk your life and spend on 10-day patrols out in the rainforest okay $3,000 a year? Fine right try getting a an American Australian to do that for $3,000 a year. And so you get a lot more bang for your your buck if that makes sense when we we we we transfer our concern from the developed to developing nation. And the last point is in developed nations such as let's say Australia and US we have enough money to save our ecosystems. It's only a lack of will. But when we find in let's say in developed nations it's funding which is a key um inhibitor of achieving outcomes they don't have the resources and funding to achieve it and therefore us as you know who are able to fundraise in the developed world can achieve so much more you know because we're actually addressing the key restrictor in achieving outcomes not government policy not will but funding is a key restrictor you know and that's something we can easily achieve um by collectivizing our capital.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

So to distill that down I am a 20-year-old college student in Middle America and I want to help orangutans it sounds to me like the best thing I can do is be part of the collective that is supporting something like the orangutan project in the sense that my $5 special coffee that I like to get every now and then, that $5 would go a lot further if I sent it off to you or every month I save that $5 end of the year I send you the the total amount then to you because that money will carry further and have a greater impact than in Southeast Asia in the rainforest where the ringatans can be found. Is that kind of a a good way to distill that all down?

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yeah I mean I mean one of the if you look at economically in developed nations we vicariously live a better quality of life through the exploitation of others because the true cost of production which companies call externalities is passed on to the poor and future generations. Yeah so for example unsustainable palm oil and paper and and you know fossil fuels. And so we we do live a better life not fault of our own but because of the system because the exploitation of us is passing true cost production onto the powerless. So if we say well gee I'm a little bit ri I'm a lot richer because of this why don't I reinvest that into a regular contribution to to counteract does it make sense the the um unavoidable impact of my living in a developed nation and you know and counteract that with direct conservation outcomes which is going to help for the future. And I was saying look if major donors giving big gifts is is wonderful and critically important to us but conservation I call it a marathon with hurdles with a professional box of punching you in the face every hundred meters. And so people who give us regular gifts month after month you know set it up you know that provides a sustainability for us to keep going and keep going and keep going and that's and that's um yes so valuable to us. And of course some people may be um money poor but time rich you know and they they volunteer you know they run quiz nights and movie nights and and you know market stores selling merchandise and you know and collectivizer labor in in in order to give and the um and the wonderful thing that once we empower ourselves to make meaningful change and once we move away from a life based on selfishness by giving you know um the wonderful thing is that makes us happy you know if you look at if you look at the um you know the the you the billionaires who are just accumulating you know ex you know um taking extracting wealth from the many to the few you know the wealth extraction over time and look if they were getting happy from it I'll say oh well at least somebody's happy you know but they're not they're miserable right they're miserable you know and and they're you know they live horrible lives they they just bought themselves a better class of misery and that's mental suffering is is horrific you know and um if they only knew the the beauty does it make sense and the joy of giving and living a selfish life life of helping others they they they would give give up their crazy life of name fame money and power.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

That's a great point. That's a great point they just bought themselves a higher class of misery. I like that I like that oh you have done like I said at the beginning of this conversation you have done so much over the years and you continue to do so much. Your for lack of a better term your resume your your credits of everything you've done thus far is is incredibly long and yet you're still doing so much. We as we started this before we started recording we mentioned you've got a book coming out very soon. I would love you to take some time to share with my audience what that book is about and and what inspired it.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Mm-hmm Yeah it's the new book is called Wild Lessons, my my fourth book and uh like all my books I don't there's no author royalties or anything like that. 100% of profits go straight into our conservation work. And the the proposition of Wild Lessons is that we have evolved as hunter gatherers in in matriarchal tribal situations. And that's how we've evolved and the agricultural and industrial revolutions are too short a time period to have any significance on our genes and our behaviors. And so we're driven nature drives us by emotions for example loneliness or wanting to find a mate wanting yes gain higher status and these sorts of things um which are designed to promote our survival and reproduction in the tribe over thousands of years now we're fish out of the water those things have become made us dysfunctional and made us unhappy and and is driving us to destroy the environment which supports us. And so by understanding um these drivers you know and how we're dysfunctional um we can go we can we can go beyond them yeah to live happy and productive lives and lives which will be meaningful to give back to the environment and so it it it's coming to the the the um the thesis is as it were that um you know the destruction of the planet is a human problem you know unless we unless I in some way try to address a human element yeah i it you know my my my work won't be holistic and complete and so the book is designed to provide insight into ourselves and provide a framework for people to become happier and more joyous in and and um because uh as you probably see let's say when we're we're couching the billionaires as an example if if you're unhappy inside and you need to gain you know um resources name fame power and reputation um you you will put out hate you will put out problems into the world you know you know unhappiness wants to create more unhappiness it's a bit like if you've got a splitting headache someone comes up to you how are you going? Oh bugger off you know I'm just just leave me alone right you it's you your pain is spread naturally but through my you know let's say the analysis in Wild Lessons, if we find that joy and love and beauty within ourselves, as I always say, our first duty in life is to be cheerful right because I know it sounds selfish but if you're cheerful and and happy and loving yourself that naturally spreads out as a natural consequence. You know if you're if you're happy you want everyone to be happy you can't stand people to be miserable. You want to help them doesn't make sense you want the whole world to be happy. Anyhow that gives you kind of the you know the um the the back of the envelope summary of the latest book.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

I can't wait we're recording this the end of June you said it might come out in a few weeks so this episode will come out to the public as they're listening right now it will be mid-July. Do you know roughly when they can start looking for this book?

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Yeah and I believe what the book's written and um I I believe we just I'm just finishing off the audiobook version um we've got ebook and so it it should be available for online purchase at the paperback as well with two or three weeks from now so in July. Wonderful okay so so one more time what's the title?

SPEAKER_02 42:13

Wild Lessons. Wild Lessons. All right what I'll do listeners if you're you're looking for how you can find this because there's going to be a bit of delay when we're recording this versus when it comes out it might this episode might come out when the book comes out so I'll make sure that if it's out when this episode comes out there'll be links down below in the show notes on how you can find this book. I have to admit starting to get ready for this interview I was doing some homework on the orangutan project and everything else you do and I I was really looking to dive deeper into orangutans but I I think the beauty of this conversation that we've had and what I am so thankful for for the time you've taken to to be here today is that your decades of working with animals and people and with wildlife, there is a level of wisdom you bring to the conversation that I don't normally get to experience and and I know that wisdom comes from how you have spent your life interfacing with these these animals and and with the people that live in these spaces and your experiences I can't thank you enough for not only the work you've done, but how you present why it's important and how others can step up and do their their version of this, whether it's supporting a Rangatan project or the elephant project or the tiger project or something else they're passionate about, maybe it's tapiers in South America, I don't know. But uh just the wisdom you bring to the conversation of how to approach conservation and living as another living creature on this planet, sharing it with other animals I I can't thank you enough for for you and your work. It's really amazing.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

Thank you, Rick. And with with the Wild Lessons, i yeah. I do talk about orangutanks and their social system behavior and how they think. Um but that then in informed the conversation about how we think, you know, and and and and how we relate to the environment.

unknown 44:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

Completely understandable. And you know, uh uh again, it's uh I've had my own personal experiences with close, tight relationships with different wildlife and animals, and I can only imagine as much time as you know, I I my very first step into caring for animals, I was a volunteer at the Wilden Park Zoo in Seattle. I was assigned at the primate area. I one day a week I got to assist in prepping diets for orangutans and getting to just sit with the main caretakers and listen to them talk about the social structure and the intelligence and all that. And I mean, to this day I'm still in awe of the species. And so I can't imagine the amount of time and intimacy you have had with this species, how many lessons they've they have offered you in showing you how to human. It's it's gotta be amazing. I can't wait for the book to come out. It it sounds truly, truly like a peek behind the window or the curtain, I should say, into uh you know what what you've experienced and the knowledge they have given to you that you can now share with us.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Yeah. I mean, one of the wonderful things about orangutans, I often characterize them a more noble form of humanity. And so we we are much more aggressive and warlike like our close cousins or chimpanzees, you know. Um orangutans are not like that, you know, they're they're peaceful, you know, and they don't have war, they don't have distraction. Um and so that's uh a wonderful insight. But the other element to it is we always compare intelligence by our own framework, you know? And and so we even do that culturally. We compare, you know, we miscompare intelligence. And so I would say orangutanks maybe dunces in the classroom, but geniuses in a rainfrost. And and with things like temple spatial maps of where the fruiting trees are, are beyond human capacity to understand. And and so they look at us and go, you guys are idiots. How the hell did you survive? You know, from their perspective, it doesn't make sense, of how they rate an intelligence. Because to become intelligent in ways that don't aid your survival and reproduction is the most stupid thing a species can do because you're developing a large brain which is in consuming all its calories, right? And and then without adding to your survival. And so to this helps us in a sense, um I guess drop our prejudices about not only other living creatures by comparing them to light for light for intelligence, but other human beings. Yeah. And this gives us a a far better insight into ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

Yeah. So amazing, so wonderful. I can't thank you enough for the time you spent with me today on Animals, Nature, and you. Uh and I think probably once the book comes out and I get a chance to read it, I might be asking you to come back on to talk more about the book. It sounds great. But is there anything we haven't discussed about your work and your projects that you'd like to make sure my audience walks away with?

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Um, no, I think we've we've I mean, I mean, this we cover so much. I actually do take people in on echo tours, you know. Yes. And then I'd, you know, I have um what I call my fireside chats at night and take people on the the whole journey of the evolution and natural history, orangutans and conservation. Um and you know, and some I've I've had pi maximum now is five, but a lot of uh the guests come two or three times back for the echo tours. And again, it's what win-win situations they can get really into the subject, you know, about orangutans and what we're doing and what uh why you're doing and why they come back on the echo tours, is because they're genuinely, genuinely enriched. Doesn't make sense, and by the experience. Again, it comes back to the um win-win solutions. Unfortunately, we can't do that on on a a you know a short format podcast, but um we can only give the taste uh of that.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

It's been a wonderful taste, and I will make sure in the show notes, whether people are watching this on YouTube or or listening on the podcast player, we'll have links for those eco tours as well. You know, it's one of those things where uh even if we could somehow capture the essence of that on a podcast, I I believe too that the experience being out there in that space, that is where we as humans, I feel, truly get to reconnect with ourselves, is when we're reconnecting in nature. And so I can only imagine what it must be like. And it makes complete sense that people come back multiple times on those eco-tours because I can't imagine doing it once going, okay, well, that was a great experience. Like you'd want more of that. That's that's gotta be amazing. So I'll have all the links down below. Again, Leif, this has been a truly wonderful conversation. I can't wait to have you back on. Thanks so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Rick. And of course, thank you, dear listeners, as always. And as you know, I appreciate you being here. And I have to say, this is my little catchphrase that this is a curious odyssey, uh, the whole idea of this podcast and exploring things about animals and nature and people. This conversation with Leif has been so much more than I thought it was gonna be. He, as mentioned in the intro, he does so much. There are so many projects, and again, all the links will be down below. But I I mentioned it when I was talking to him, and I just have to say it again: the wisdom that he carries with him from his experiences, it's not an opinion, it's what he has experienced that shows him what works. The animals have shown him what works, the people who live in those spaces show him what works. The work itself, over so many decades with the results it's had shows him what works. I highly encourage you to check out his information. The social media for a Rangatan project will be down below also. But the elephant project, the tiger project, all of it, they all have their social media too. If you go to their main website, you can find everything there. It is truly fascinating. And I can't wait. Again, this is being recorded at the end of June. It should come out mid-July, which is about the time the book might be available that he was talking about. I'll have the links down there if it's available. If it's not, I do encourage you to write down the title of this book and then look for it for sale in the next couple weeks. Um, I know I will be. So, with that, we're gonna wrap this up. I do want to remind you, if you haven't already, uh if you're new here or you've been listening for a little bit and been thinking about it, hit subscribe or follow. I don't want you to miss upcoming episodes. We have more great conversations every Thursday, like we had today. Every Tuesday is a 10-minute Tuesday where we talk maybe about a particular species or something of interest, a little bit shorter, solo episodes. And of course, Animals Nature and U has its own Instagram account. The link is down below for that too, and my social media, Zoology Rick, or my website, zoologyrick.com. With that, last but not least, I do want to ask you, and not just for me, but just for anybody you might know who needs to be enriched, who wants or you know would thrive with enrichment, that Laif has brought to this conversation, that he's brought to this podcast. This is an episode we're sharing. Yes, it is obviously a way to share this podcast and find fellow community people who'd be interested in it. But I think really, even if not, even if not for this podcast, even if it's just to share Laif's message, wisdom, and knowledge, I think there's great value in that. So please, anywhere you're listening or if you're watching on YouTube, there's an easy way. There's a share button, send it to somebody in text, email, social media, whatever it might be. It's it's just amazing. Amazing conversation. All right, I'm gonna wrap this up. Have a good one, everybody.