What Happens When AZA & Non-AZA Facilities Work Together?

In this episode, we explore the importance of community involvement in wildlife conservation, the benefits of collaboration between AZA and non-AZA facilities, and practical ways for local communities to engage with their ecosystems. Jacob Reiter shares insights from his work at Pace University and discusses how local actions can make a global impact.

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Links mentioned in this episode:
Pace Univ. Department of Environmental Studies and Science
Association for Advancing Participatory Sciences

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Podcast Music: Positive Carefree Folk Pop
Artist: Burgberg
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SPEAKER_00 0:00

My colleagues will say this as well is that we really believe that conservation can happen and does happen on the community level. And however, whatever, however big or small you want to make your community, right? And so I think that it's it's finding that as the common ground, right? If you have a AZA accredited zoo or aquarium and a local nature center within the same county, let's say. That's their instant common ground.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

I'm Rick Schwartz, educator, public speaker, and all-around curious guy. Over the years, my curiosity and experiences, along with the many people I have worked with, revealed to me we all have a desire to feel connected to the natural world. You're listening to Animals, Nature, and You, a podcast that explores a connection between animals, nature, and humans. A podcast that celebrates learning more, following our curiosity, and reconnecting with the natural world. Welcome to another episode of Animals, Nature, and You. I'm your host, Rick Schwartz, but of course you knew that from the intro. And you might know, since I say it all the time, but it's true. I'm really glad you're here. I'm glad you're joining me on the podcast players, where you're listening or watching on YouTube. The feedback has been great. I've been getting a lot of fun fan mail, things like that. So if you haven't already, make sure you hit subscribe or follow. And I say that early on on purpose because I want you to do it now. We have so many great interviews coming up. We've had so many great interviews in the past. If you haven't heard them, we've been doing interviews since January, and we've had some great ones all throughout. I would love for you to go back and maybe give those a listen if you're new to this podcast. Animals, nature, and you was born out of this idea that it's important we understand the connections and the nuances and the details of how we're connected to animals, nature, and other people and other people and to us and nature and to animals and all of it. This conversation today is a big part of that, which makes sense, right? We're going to stay on topic. Jacob first reached out to me to say, hey, I think I'd like to have a conversation with you and for your podcast about the importance of AZA or American Association of Zoos and Aquariums and those facilities that fall under that umbrella, working with non-AZA facilities. And I think initially, when we hear something like that, our mind goes to what's been sensationalized. So Tiger King is an example, non-AZA facility that breeds these animals for photo ops and whatever else. But then you kind of lose sight as to where did the youngsters go once they grew up and no longer good for photo ops, and then how'd they get more babies next year for more photo ops, but then where'd the other ones go from last year? And lots of sketchy non-AZA facilities, but also there are a lot of really good ones. And to just say it's either this only or that only really does a disservice to ourselves and to conservation and to wildlife, because in the middle of AZA and non-AZA is a big swath of gray area that's deep and wide and filled with really great facilities doing amazing work that maybe can't reach that AZA accreditation because there are things like needing food service or guest, you know, gift shops, things like that, that if you don't have those, you can't get accreditation. And uh the point of the conversation is not to talk about what's wrong or right with accreditation or non-accreditation, so much as reminding people the value of working together. So Jacob and I are going to get into it. I got some great questions for him. I know we already talked a little bit on the phone, and I'm just like, dude, dude, it's even for the podcast. So I want to read his bio real quick. He's done so much, and uh, it's just it's so great to have somebody with this kind of passion and knowledge on the podcast, as always. So here we go, real quick, I'm gonna read it to you because there's a lot of details I don't want to miss. So, Jacob Ryder is a wildlife biologist and interdisciplinary conservation scientist based in the lower Hudson Valley region of New York, a former zookeeper, field biologist, and environmental educator, he has worked in the field of wildlife conservation for over 10 years. In his current role, and I will ask him more about this because the title is fascinating and I want to learn more, but in his current role as a conservation center manager for Pace University's suburban biology conservation center in Westchester County, New York, he manages the daily operations of the center's 40-acre property, a living laboratory, if you will, the associated programs and the research projects that take place on the grounds. Jacob holds a BS in wildlife science from the State University New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry in Syracuse, New York. In addition to his work with PACE, Jacob is a licensed wildlife rehabilitator and has acted as contributing editor for the Birds of the Wild Database. Professionally, he's a member of the American Ornithology Society, Society of Conservation for Biology, and International Wild Waterfowl Association. That is a very diverse background and swath of knowledge that you have, Jacob. And so with that, I want to get into this conversation right now with you. And Jacob, I can't thank you enough for taking the time today to be a guest on Animals, Nature, and You. My pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

I'm I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

I appreciate uh having the opportunity to talk with you. I'm really excited about the conversation that we get to bring to the audience today. You and I had spoken before we did the recording. Obviously, in the intro, we we covered a lot of what you have done, what you're doing as a conservation center manager at Pace University's whole program there. I would like to dive into that just a little bit more about what you're currently doing, just so I think my audience has a better understanding of what that entails exactly. So tell us a real quick, sort of brief overview. What is your job right now that you're doing there at Pace University?

SPEAKER_00 5:41

So I manage an organization called the Suburban Biodiversity Conservation Center at PACE. We're um I like to say we're a research, education, and outreach organization that connects folks with issues in environmental conservation around the Lower Hudson Valley and Greater New York City metro region. Um my day-to-day is about 50% property management and stewardship, maintaining our property, maintaining the habitats that are on that property. And then I do a pretty healthy mix of different programs like wildlife monitoring through our Nest Watch program. Um we're starting a yearly biodiversity monitoring um schedule, I guess you could say, of different taxa throughout throughout parts of the property during different times of the year. And then I do a lot of environmental education through different public programs. Um, and I do what I call co-curricular instruction for a lot of different courses and labs at the university. Our big mission is to use our property as a living laboratory, is the tagline. And so getting students out and in the field and in that space rather than sitting in a classroom and learning about what you could do out in that field, out in that space is kind of one of the big parts of my job to facilitate that.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

That's pretty awesome. You know, just I think uh working with younger kids, not at the university level. I think it's I've seen the value of hands-on outside learning versus the classroom curriculum, the textbook, the computer screens. So that's pretty awesome that Pace University has that. And what a great position to find yourself in to be managing all of that and taking care of that and connecting people with that. You did mention Nestwatch. Real quick, what is NestWatch?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

A great question. Uh, Nestwatch is a community science or participatory science product uh program project run by the Cornell Lab of Ornithology. So they facilitate the program by offering training resources and information for people to monitor birds and their breeding activity and their nesting activity in their backyard, um, is what it's really ultimately designed for. And then that data gets taken back to you, you upload that data on a website and it's taken back to Cornell. Uh, and they use it for different large-scale breeding bird analyses and population distributions and all that good stuff. But we at the Conservation Center are an officially recognized chapter of NestWatch. So certain organizations, if they run a NestWatch program, they can apply for a chapter status uh with the lab. And basically, kind of what that allows is you get some resources to train folks in person in your area on how to do Neswatch. And the way that I kind of like to talk about it is if you know someone who lives in an area that's near a chapter has a question about Neswatch and they send an email to uh Cornell, they can be like, well, here's the answer to your question. But also, this chapter of Neswatch is right down the road from you. So you can actually go talk to people there and you know, answer or ask questions to them all the time.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Very cool. And I love the idea that it brings the community into the space of the participatory science at a community level, matching people also then with their local chapters, which then also dovetails a little bit into uh, and that that being, of course, the fact that we can learn from each other, the fact that the scientists can learn what the data is that the people are gathering about what's going on with the nests, and the people who are having nesting birds in their property, their yard can learn from the scientists, which brings us more into the conversation, which the reason we're really talking, which is you first reach out to me with the idea that it's a discussion that needs to happen more often, which is AZA facilities, these are accredited zoos and aquariums, could benefit by speaking more, communicating more with non-AZA facilities, and vice versa. And this is a conversation that I was really excited about because my background, primarily working for a large AZA organization, I've also worked for facilities that just missed the mark on being accredited because they didn't have a gift shop or because they didn't have food service, which is a part of the requirements for a full-blown AZA accreditation. There are some exceptions, but nonetheless, it does not diminish the value of what the work is being done or how they work. And also, in my experience, conservation efforts that AZA programs will partner with, let's say some somewhere in Kenya or somewhere in Australia, there's an NGO doing work, and the partnership with the zoo offers more funding, more exposure, maybe uh cross-pollination of information. That NGO that the AZA facility has partnered with also might be partnered with non-AZA facilities that also bring great data, information, knowledge to the table. So I wanted to hear from you. I want, I want you to share your experience in what is it? Why would it be beneficial for this beyond what I might say the obvious, which is clearly there are there are certain things that prevent something or a facility from becoming AZA. You have a lot of different experiences across the board, across your lifetime, both AZA and non-AZA. What is your perspective on this?

SPEAKER_00 11:33

I, you know, similarly, I got my start, I guess I would say, in an AZA, at an AZA institution, right? And I I I came to know and understand and and really respect and and see myself as part of the mission of AZA and everything that they're they're doing and every future thing that they want to do. And then on the other hand, was able to have some time in that non-AZA sector and really even not in the non-zoological sector, um, you know, working more in in the environmental consulting fields, and then now in my in my more, I guess, academic-facing position, um, that focuses a lot on you know, stewardship and and um local conservation. But I I think that both of these entities and both uh any an organization that falls into either one of these entities, they have a mission, right? And their mission, when you look at both of them, is more often than not the same. Right? We're we're out here, we're doing this work to protect, conserve, and preserve plants, animals, habitats, resources for on one hand, generations of people to enjoy and know and understand and learn from. And on the other hand, just for the to maintain the integrity of of ecosystems, right? And and trophic and the natural trophic levels. Um and so I think that oftentimes maybe we don't really realize that that's both of the that's the end goal and that's that's the mission for for both of us. You know, if you're working at um an AZA accredited zoo aquarium versus, you know, a small private nature center or land trust. And I think that both of these entities have inherent, maybe I don't know if markets is the right word that I want to say, but but people that they connect with, right? And and you know, going to the big, you know, city, major city zoo or aquarium that's AZA accredited. So you're getting people from all over the country, maybe even all over the world, wherever you are, and and you're able to connect them with this broad scale mission of wildlife conservation and just smart environmental decision making, too. Then is what I say, this is you know what I'll say when I'm talking to folks about this, is they're there and then they leave. And I feel like a lot of people are like, okay, well, now I'm going back to wherever I live or wherever I'm from, and I'm still maybe a little intrigued or in or even invigorated by like what I just learned. And how can I how can I do that and how can I foster that further? And I feel like that's a part or a spot where some of these more local conservation organizations can can come into play. You know, I think maybe as a generalization, AZA facilities are really inspiring folks to care about and connect with things that they have never seen and maybe never will see. You know, we're talking about lions in Africa and Asian elephants and and penguins in Antarctica, right? Which is incredibly, incredibly important. And I see so much tremendous value in that. But then you have people who maybe don't live in Antarctica, right? They don't live in Africa and see lions every day. Um and so they're looking at their areas around them, you know, and and for me, it's and currently in downstate New York and most growing up most of my life in upstate New York. And I look around and I I see things like white-tailed deer, bobcats, red-tailed hawks, bard owls, and I think to myself, I'm like, oh, okay, they might be facing the same issues and the same things that all other wildlife and and environments are facing around the world, right? And so when you have the ability for people to then go back into their community and see firsthand some of that type of conservation work that is being talked about and shown in these AZA settings with a local nature center or land trust or state park. And then they go in and they're like, oh my God, I had no idea that this was happening five minutes down the road for me. I'll put in a very niche example that I think is actually an uh interesting uh partnership between AZA and non-AZA facilities. But growing up near Syracuse, New York, the Chittenango ovate amber snail is found only one spot in the world, Chittenango Falls. And nobody outside of there would know about it, right? And so our zoo in Syracuse, Rosamond Gifford Zoo, had a partnership with the college that I attended, SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry, helping to propagate Chittenango ovate amber snails for release back into the wild. And I think it's a maybe it's a funny example because when we talk about charismatic megafauna of like elephants, lions, tigers, and then on the one hand, then we're going back to this teeny tiny little invertebrate and talking about the importance of its conservation. I mean, the messaging is the same, right? But I think it it lends to that analogy of the the big scale ideas of wildlife conservation on the one hand, and then those small local in practice and applied right at your doorstep methods. So I think I think that's a that's just one example I know I I have off the top of my head, but I think that's where the service is there, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Absolutely makes sense. And I think it's a great point. You know, it's a conversation that I've had with many people across my career is that how do we get people excited about things that aren't the faraway exotic megafauna? It's always the the panda, the elephant, the big cat of some sort in a different country, different continent, different part of the world. But to your point, we have some pretty cool things right here in North America, whether it's New York, California, Montana, Florida, anywhere in between. Our local wildlife is always so interesting if we take the time to realize that. Then you bring in snail versus panda. Well, most people are going to want to learn more about the panda because there's something cute. We recognize the cute face, the round head. But I I think you bring up a very good point in that the overall practices of the in and the value of whether it's conserving wildlife and native spaces for future generations or just for the fact that we as humans need these things to exist also. It spreads beyond just a single component, whether that component is AZA or a state or federal agency or an NGO. These are partnerships that are important. And the value of them, too, is very important. And you I love how you brought up the the local zoo there, uh Rosemont Gifford Zoo was working with the group there at the college. There are so many examples of that. When you look past just the zoo, how many different organizations they do work with, whether it's college level, state, federal, NGO, whatever it might be, to get this work done. It's these partnerships that need to be highlighted. All of this being said, I do want to point out too one thing that does come up a lot in the realm of AZA versus non-AZA, because there's a lot of important parts of the nuanced details. And I want to make sure the audience listening or watching recognizes the fact that we aren't talking about working with roadside zoos that have no accreditation that who knows where they got their animals from and they're trying to sell you an opportunity to take a picture with a baby tiger or something like that. That's not what we're talking about. Because there there is that side of the non-AZA zoo world as well. Uh so it's not a big stroke that that covers all of these things. There is nuance, there is a need to understand the details of the work being done, why it's being done, et cetera. But it also is important to have that conversation because it we can't just draw a line and say, okay, we're only supporting those on this side of that line and not supporting any on that side because there's too much gray area. So, with that, I know another part of our conversation we want to have today is what is sort of the solution to this. We talked about the need for community in Nestwatch as an example. What other things and what other ways can we start to broaden this for our local communities, whether it's someone who lives in an area where there's only one lizard or snail or particular bird found, or whether it's uh something more like being aware of mountain lions. Like here in California, we have mountain lions that roam free, but they're also in these little environmental islands because of our cities and our freeways. And as we grow, we start to have more opportunities where we see them in what we would consider non-mountain lion habitats because of that. So that's another example, too, where we had some famous mountain lions here in Southern California, uh, other parts up north, there's bears. In your area, there's a wide variety of wildlife. You mentioned quite a few. What are some of the things that would be solutions to starting to bridge this gap of communication and getting local communities involved?

SPEAKER_00 21:41

I think and that's like that's the question, right? Right. And I don't expect you to have the exact solution. And so and but I think it's very interesting when I when I start to think about it, because in my current position right now, my colleagues will say this is. well is that we really believe that conservation can happen and does happen on the community level and however whatever however big or small you want to um make your community right and so I think that it's it's finding that as as the common ground right if you have a AZA accredited zoo aquarium and a local nature center within the same county let's say you know that's their instant of where hey we're both interacting with people from this community and this demographic and they're coming to see you know what we're doing over here on this day and they're coming to see what you're doing over here on this day and maybe or maybe not they know that we both are in a very similar mindset of what we're trying to teach and show and educate them about when they when they come to visit. And so I think that different community level initiatives is one of the one of the easiest ways and and one of the ways that I you know if I was king of the world if I would that's how I would direct it you know all to to go is okay well we've got this AZA accredited zoo aquarium and they have red wolves let's say and then this local nature center here is running a program all about coexistence with coyotes. That's an incredible intersection right there because a lot of the issues that red wolves face in the wild are from people's distaste and and lack of information and knowledge about things like coyotes, right? And so they'll see what they think is a coyote and then you know you get a landowner that's like I'm just gonna you know I'm gonna shoot this coyote because uh it's coming near my livestock or whatever it might be. And so that's a that's a great opportunity to be like hey we're this nature center we're doing this program about coyotes. We know you have red wolves do you guys want to do a collaboration with this program and invite people out, talk about coyotes here in our area and how you know how to interact with them and how how to expect what you know and know what their behavior is and know that they're not malicious and out here to get you. And then you know maybe we can have a portion of the funds that we raise from this program go to safe Red Wolf or something like that. You know I I think initiatives like that where clearly at least to me there's there's mutual benefit from both sides under that umbrella of the same mission that at at our core we're all trying to to work towards I feel like you know when when you get the community of people where you are engaged in what you're doing it makes everything you're doing so much easier. And that's something that I try to find myself doing in my current position um you know and and today you know we had a public program about invasive plants and people are all just jazzed up afterwards about going back to their house and rooting through their gardens and pulling all different invasive plants and it's like that's fantastic you know right and so I think that that when we can do that in in context of of this conversation and talking about broad scale and local scale wildlife and environmental conservation and and having these different entities unite under that common banner of connecting with the community to inspire action I think that's when we can see success and and good fortune, I guess, you know, just r arise exponentially.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

This is what I love about this conversation in that it was goodness over I want to say 10, 11 years ago I was in Kenya and was exposed to a a lion program that specifically started a decade before I even visited that got the tribes that lived and roamed through the Samburu to be a part of lion conservation because the lions in Samburu area in the national park there and the surrounding areas were going away. And I was just in awe of that program how this lady who started her PhD and then it became its own standalone anyone listening is Owasa lions. I'll put a link down below uh it's a great program and I thought wow wouldn't it be cool if we could do something like this back in the US for wolves and mountain lions and coyotes and because it really took people who were living with and amongst the lions who were fearful of them, wanted to kill them, turned everything around over a series of years to the point now they were participating in their protection and activated to be protective of them as well by just a couple of shifts in lifestyle. And that local community made that huge difference for that population of lions. Fast forward then further my career a lot of programs whether they're parrots in Mexico or whether it's koalas or other wildlife in Australia, the local community getting involved, whatever that might look like, is the key factor that makes a huge difference for the species and the conservation you might have large entities coming in doing things for conservation, but once the community is activated and participating and involved, because also the community gets to teach the conservationists and scientists about the local environment, about the local cultures, about the local animals as well. So fast forward then to just a couple episodes ago speaking to the head of conservation at the Dublin Zoo, talking about Siloases macaques and the value in getting involved with the communities that live there in those environments. Just a couple episodes Leaf Cox with the orangutan foundation and all the work he does there with orangutan conservation about the people about getting people activated involved supported also not just activated involved but supporting the local communities. And now talking to you today talking about something as simple as teaching local community here in the United States about invasive plants, activating people, getting them excited to then go back to their own property and see if they can get rid of some of these invasive plants. These are all great examples to exactly what you're saying is that the value of this community involvement, the value of working together it's just it's so it's this I keep hearing it over and over again everybody I talk to about whatever conservation project it might be. So I'm really glad that you're bringing in this perspective here right here in North America, right here in the United States, right here, simple things we can do at home that are part of it. And I want to help activate others in the sense that what are some things we can point people to that might be listening to this going, I had no idea that I could get more involved in my local communities. Is there a website? Is there other information or maybe like tell people what to search for in their local communities to hopefully help them connect with their local you know we mentioned Nestwatch as an example but I'm sure there's others. So is there any others you could could kind of list out for us that we could share with the audience?

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yeah I mean there's there's tons of different things that I could think of and maybe most of them are are specific to to my neck of the woods but maybe as a as a general statement you know reaching out to your local land trusts and preserves and state parks they're always running and always looking to run new and engaging programs and projects and they're also always actively engaged in some form of research that always always can benefit from helping hands, community involvement and sometimes hinges on community buy-in to that work especially so so I think that's just a great resource that's I think across the board anyone wherever you are you know wherever you are you have a land trust somewhere right wherever you are you have a local park.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Yeah I was gonna say I want to definitely piggyback on the state park thing too because I know here in my own area in San Diego we have several state parks that I go to and don't know about the programs they offer until you actually go because they don't have a budget to market it, to put it out there to advertise for their programs that they have. But if you go there and inquire you'll be like oh here's a whole list of things they have going on seasonally or that are applicable to our local habitat. So yeah big big shout out to state parks local land trusts go check them out don't just go to their websites but go there because a lot of times there's no funding to keep the website up to date whatever it might be. So yes definitely agree with that but keep going I had to jump in there because I wanted to be like oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

And then you know on on some other broad scale specific examples um there's the Association for advancing participatory sciences um which I've come to know about in actually very very recently um which you know any of these community and participatory science programs someone who oversees or runs them has some connection to um the Association for advanced precipatory sciences in some way shape or form. A lot I know a lot of zoo and aquarium educators that are members of of that society. I know lots of people in the in the private nonprofit sector that are educators or community science coordinators that are members of those that society and that I think also is a big melting pot of professionals from both sides of of the aisle in this context. And so they provide a lot of resources for how to get involved in participatory and community science wherever you are. Specific example to New York uh we have the um partnership for regional invasive species management um it's a whole statewide initiative but it's it's split into different regions and um they provide resources for how to manage invasives of all kinds plants terrestrial aquatic animals and you know what you can do in your area that's kind of an actionable option for just the person again in their backyard. Right. And also don't don't skimp out when you go to an AZA zoo or aquarium talk to somebody who works there you know like talk to one of the keepers talk to an educator because they I know for a fact and I'm sure you know this as well they want to talk to you um about their job and what they do and why it's important and they want you to know about the work that's being done at their facility. So those are just kind of some things that I that I would I would say off the top of my head of of where I would direct people to go. All great things Jacob thank you so much for that if anybody wants to get a hold of you is there a preferred method is there social media LinkedIn an email address if if they have more questions they want to follow up with after listening to this yeah so um my my work email um is j writer uh j r-e-i t e r at pace dot edu um I'm happy to answer questions um or or just chat about that sort of stuff um our conservation center we have a a website um suburban biodiversity conservation center at Pace University has all of our different things and some different contact methods um if you're just ever trying to get uh a question to the center in general um and I'm on uh yeah I'm on LinkedIn just as my name and um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Well and as always I will make sure that that information is all down below whether you're watching on YouTube or listening elsewhere. All the links will be in the show notes. Jacob I want to thank you so much for taking the time to be a guest today to talk about this topic to remind everyone that it's not just about the exotic megafauna on the other side of the world. Sometimes it is a snail in our own backyard and or invasive plants even literally in our backyard and the value of learning more about our own local ecosystems and bringing the community together. I really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation today.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Thank you for having me. Again I'm I'm something I'm happy to talk about and I think I will continue to talk about whenever anybody is within earshot.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Well as you should as you should thanks again man I appreciate it. Thank you. And of course as always thank you dear listeners I appreciate you spending time with us andor viewers I should say too some people watching on YouTube. Appreciate you all being here on this curious odyssey we call Animals Nature and you this conversation with Jacob also reminded me in our recent realm of memes and social media life and things that are popular in our culture this raccoon that's got the name Jimothy has become incredibly popular and he has a spine issue I don't even know for sure if we know that Jimothy is a boy or not, but Jimothy sounds like a boy's name I don't know. Jimothy has a condition with that creates a shortened spine. And we have seen online there are dogs that have this sometimes as well Jimothy for whatever reason has captured the hearts and minds of so many people that it has gone more viral than than any animal meme I have seen in a very, very long time. There are shirts there are stickers there are embroidery things there I've I've seen just about everything you can imagine that has this fun, adorable, unique raccoon. And I had posted something a while back that is a possum up close to the screen just saying me scrolling through hoping this excitement for Jimothy transfers to being excited about our native wildlife. The conversation with Jacob today reminded me that that can come in all forms. I hope Jimothy's story and the excitement around Jimothy gets people more interested in actually understanding and learning more about their local native wildlife. He's a raccoon in Seattle raccoons live all over North America. Talking with Jacob we talked about the snails that they were working to save in New York talking about removing invasive plants talking about people in our own communities getting involved with native wildlife whether that's ecosystems, plants, birds, insects, snails, mammals, whatever it might be Jacob really brought up a good point too about how we can look at partnering with the Red Wolf conservation as an example with coyote education because a misunderstanding has created challenges for the red wolf. And there's just so many other avenues where we can look at our own native wildlife and get excited, interested and participate in caring for our own habitats. And that's that's the beauty of this conversation and I I hope you got something out of this too. I'll have all the links down below as I always do. If you want to get a hold of me my website's down below also zoologyrick.com along with all the social media usually the handle zoology rick those are all great ways to get a hold of me animals nature and you has its own Instagram handle too just animals nature and you link also down below. So with that we are going to wrap this up I do want to remind you though real quick if you haven't already please subscribe or hit follow so you don't miss any of the upcoming episodes. 10 Minute Tuesdays will be coming back and of course every Thursday we have these awesome interviews with awesome people like Jacob doing amazing work whether it's for wildlife or for animals whether it's animal nutrition or things for communities or anything and everything in between maybe even we'll get back to somebody doing some work in nature that might be a thing. Animal pet therapy we talked to those at Helen Woodward who did that not too long ago. All sorts of great interviews coming up this year. So be sure you have already subscribed so you don't miss any of those. All right we're gonna wrap it up. Have a good one everybody